From dan at thecsl.org  Tue Dec  1 00:08:01 2009
From: dan at thecsl.org (Dan MacNeil)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:08:01 -0500
Subject: [Cadre-politics] 2 page academic paper about CSL work
Message-ID: <4B14A4B1.7060407@thecsl.org>


We're going to this conference:

	http://www.hfoss.org/hfoss2010/

Thanks to Bob Lechner for pointing out that it existed.

Thanks to Fred Martin for pointing out that we'll have better
conversations if we submit a "poster summary" or "Position Paper".

Thanks to Laura MacNeil for fixing some really ugly bits in the minutes
before the submission deadline.


From dan at thecsl.org  Tue Dec  8 09:56:28 2009
From: dan at thecsl.org (Dan MacNeil)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 09:56:28 -0500
Subject: [Cadre-politics] feedback on paper (power perfected in weakness)
Message-ID: <4B1E691C.4050103@thecsl.org>


I really struggled with this paper. Often my struggles produce something
good. I suspect a lot of my habits have evolved to generate that feeling
of struggle.

Unfortunately, it is likely that feeling of struggle is only weakly
correlated with usefulness.  I probably do better work, when I'm
stealing a chunk of focus from what I'm supposed to be doing than when
I'm clicking "submit" just before the midnight deadline.

Thanks to everyone who's responded with feedback.

John Maguire for careful copy editing to remove some annoying tics in my
language.

The anonymous conference reviewer (below) and especially Bob Lechner for
his thoughtful & useful comments. (below)

In the paper and the feedback, there may be some shards, we can recut,
polish and re-set for later use.

########
Overall merit (?)      : 1. Reject
		
Reviewer expertise (?) : 4. Expert
Novelty (?)            : 3. Incremental
Technical merit (?)    : 2. Obvious flaws
Discussability (?)     : 2. Somewhat
Writing quality (?)    : 2. Poor

Paper summary
This paper describes experiences involving students in developing
software in the Community Software Lab's Open Source lab. The emphasis
is on providing students with development experience, not on learning
per se.The paper also highlights a possible cost to the FOSS project of
using student developers.

Comments for author
The approach of immersing students in a project and providing them with
a supported self-learning environment is interesting. Have you any
feedback from educational institutions on the learning acquired by
students involved in your projects?

Comments to address
Second column on page one. The meaning of "structures" is not clear. Do
you mean software process? From where do you pull your students and how
do you find them/they find you?
##################
Response
Dan MacNeil <dan at thecsl.org>  |  Tuesday 8 Dec 2009 9:19:07am EST
The authors' response is intended to address reviewer concerns and
correct misunderstandings. The response should be addressed to the
program committee, who will consider it when making their decision.
Don't try to augment the paper's content or form?the conference deadline
has passed. Please keep the response short and to the point.
	
	
Response saved.
No we have not had feedback from educational institutions on quality of
learning. However, most people who have volunteered with us have gone on
to get paying jobs in the field.

The point, (probably buried) is that as a our primary goal is getting
good work for our project. Education is a very secondary concern.

Paradoxically, these priorities provide experience that is more
realistic than academic. Students find us by word of mouth or via a job
fair the University has each year.

Generally, their experience is positive enough to provide a good
referral to other students. By structures, I mean software process,
project management and worker (student) evaluation.

##################

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Cadre-politics] 2 page academic paper about CSL work
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 01:42:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Bob Lechner <lechner at cs.uml.edu>
To: dan at thecsl.org (Dan MacNeil)
CC: lechner at cs.uml.edu (Bob Lechner), fredm at cs.uml.edu (Fred Martin)

Hi Dan.
I read this - you do get right to the point and write succinctly.
That's good for poster- or presentation slides.

It has lots of good content and might inspire similar efforts
at other schools/cities. But it lacks historical and geographic
context. Some of your remarks at the CSL fund-raiser tea would be
appropriate here.

FOSS means code-sharing and you don't say how readers access CSL SW?

I was struck by transition points that were too sudden
for me to comprehend without prior insight to CSL.

1. Where is the title that defines your subject matter?

2 INTRO-   Where is the situational context - Boston Merrrimack Valley
and history of origin and UMassLowell support level?
At end, move from web hosting to SWDev activity begs question
of what web hosting preceded it?

3. I didn't get the point of 'EDUC'N IS NOT OUR GOAL'.
One parag. is just too short to explain context (here or in INTRO)

4. 'Student Code is of Low Quality' 'looks like' a new section. Is it?
Again, a too sudden change of subject, too brief an explanation,
so it's misleading : what class level and subject? what curriculum
objective? Don't generalize without evidence:
new CSAB/ABET accreditation requires syllabi to list
teachning goals and learning outcomes of each course.

Perhaps you mean that academic course outcomes are weak
or inadequate compared to professional dev. needs (walk before run?).
(There is movement toward scripting languages in freshman courses
now; but testing may be inadequate and correctness specification
is probably missing, except in theory-oriented programming courses
(e.g. David Gries, B Liskov, B Meyer);
At the least, assert  macros should replace print statements.


5. CURRENT STRUCTURES
Content is good, although another abrupt transition into
how to manage a student-staffed non-profit on a limited
[how much?] budget.

ALso - how you got IRS non-profit certificaiton is missing.
Perhaps this comes under fund-raising - another hot topic
to your HFOSS audience.

Explain the current environment - OS not just Perl.
Linux or Windows or both?  Platform-independent code design
is another significant gap in BS/CS curicula IMHO.
That's a big hurdle (along with international char sets - UTF-16)
that UML/MDD and uS Software Factories is all about
but lacking inside academia.

6. IMPROVED STRUCTURES
Current vs. Future is the transition here -
You imply future goals indirectly by listing 'current' bottlenecks.
I know you mean to improve by remedying all these
problems but the audience expects more positive
goal statements and hopefully plans of attack
(and/or a humble plea for advice  :-) .


7.7.  BROADER GOALS/PARALLEL HABITAT etc.
This is the last (amd most unexpected) transition.
I assumed you meant to transfer technology to
that august organization (knowing your past).

I mistook what you meant until the last parag.
and then I liked your parallel between CSL
program design and rural barn-raising
(as in the Harrison Ford  movie in Amish Lancaster PA
whose name I've forgotten).  I like that analogy
but wish I had known your motive in advance.


All in all, I hope CSL gets into the HFOSS program.
You would do well to write an abstract of your talk
or display, on its first slide or poster. That would
help you clarify the language so people comprehend
your intent and its very good content faster.

From dan at thecsl.org  Tue Dec  8 12:39:08 2009
From: dan at thecsl.org (Dan MacNeil)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:39:08 -0500
Subject: [Cadre-politics] feedback on paper (power perfected in weakness)
In-Reply-To: <72ef860f0912080917j3295ec75h567b49bbc1525ad2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B1E691C.4050103@thecsl.org>
	<72ef860f0912080917j3295ec75h567b49bbc1525ad2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B1E8F3C.6000605@thecsl.org>

> Was there just one external review then, and the
> paper was not accepted?

Actually, Trishan who is on this list, running the conference software &
perhaps more just dropped a note. There will be two more reviewers &
we'll get the final word in December.

I'm starting to get excited about the conference, independent of the
paper.

> Fred

> PS Good writing takes practice -- lots of it.  Just like
> writing code  :)

This is like:

	Good judgment comes from experience
	Experience comes from bad judgement.

I'm arrogant enough to think that I'm a good writer who sometimes writes
badly. :->

From fredm at cs.uml.edu  Tue Dec  8 12:17:45 2009
From: fredm at cs.uml.edu (Fred G. Martin)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:17:45 -0500
Subject: [Cadre-politics] feedback on paper (power perfected in weakness)
In-Reply-To: <4B1E691C.4050103@thecsl.org>
References: <4B1E691C.4050103@thecsl.org>
Message-ID: <72ef860f0912080917j3295ec75h567b49bbc1525ad2@mail.gmail.com>

Was there just one external review then, and the paper was not accepted?

Fred

PS Good writing takes practice -- lots of it.  Just like writing code :)

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Dan MacNeil <dan at thecsl.org> wrote:

>
> I really struggled with this paper. Often my struggles produce something
> good. I suspect a lot of my habits have evolved to generate that feeling
> of struggle.
>
> Unfortunately, it is likely that feeling of struggle is only weakly
> correlated with usefulness.  I probably do better work, when I'm
> stealing a chunk of focus from what I'm supposed to be doing than when
> I'm clicking "submit" just before the midnight deadline.
>
> Thanks to everyone who's responded with feedback.
>
> John Maguire for careful copy editing to remove some annoying tics in my
> language.
>
> The anonymous conference reviewer (below) and especially Bob Lechner for
> his thoughtful & useful comments. (below)
>
> In the paper and the feedback, there may be some shards, we can recut,
> polish and re-set for later use.
>
> ########
> Overall merit (?)      : 1. Reject
>
> Reviewer expertise (?) : 4. Expert
> Novelty (?)            : 3. Incremental
> Technical merit (?)    : 2. Obvious flaws
> Discussability (?)     : 2. Somewhat
> Writing quality (?)    : 2. Poor
>
> Paper summary
> This paper describes experiences involving students in developing
> software in the Community Software Lab's Open Source lab. The emphasis
> is on providing students with development experience, not on learning
> per se.The paper also highlights a possible cost to the FOSS project of
> using student developers.
>
> Comments for author
> The approach of immersing students in a project and providing them with
> a supported self-learning environment is interesting. Have you any
> feedback from educational institutions on the learning acquired by
> students involved in your projects?
>
> Comments to address
> Second column on page one. The meaning of "structures" is not clear. Do
> you mean software process? From where do you pull your students and how
> do you find them/they find you?
> ##################
> Response
> Dan MacNeil <dan at thecsl.org>  |  Tuesday 8 Dec 2009 9:19:07am EST
> The authors' response is intended to address reviewer concerns and
> correct misunderstandings. The response should be addressed to the
> program committee, who will consider it when making their decision.
> Don't try to augment the paper's content or form?the conference deadline
> has passed. Please keep the response short and to the point.
>
>
> Response saved.
> No we have not had feedback from educational institutions on quality of
> learning. However, most people who have volunteered with us have gone on
> to get paying jobs in the field.
>
> The point, (probably buried) is that as a our primary goal is getting
> good work for our project. Education is a very secondary concern.
>
> Paradoxically, these priorities provide experience that is more
> realistic than academic. Students find us by word of mouth or via a job
> fair the University has each year.
>
> Generally, their experience is positive enough to provide a good
> referral to other students. By structures, I mean software process,
> project management and worker (student) evaluation.
>
> ##################
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Cadre-politics] 2 page academic paper about CSL work
> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 01:42:25 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bob Lechner <lechner at cs.uml.edu>
> To: dan at thecsl.org (Dan MacNeil)
> CC: lechner at cs.uml.edu (Bob Lechner), fredm at cs.uml.edu (Fred Martin)
>
> Hi Dan.
> I read this - you do get right to the point and write succinctly.
> That's good for poster- or presentation slides.
>
> It has lots of good content and might inspire similar efforts
> at other schools/cities. But it lacks historical and geographic
> context. Some of your remarks at the CSL fund-raiser tea would be
> appropriate here.
>
> FOSS means code-sharing and you don't say how readers access CSL SW?
>
> I was struck by transition points that were too sudden
> for me to comprehend without prior insight to CSL.
>
> 1. Where is the title that defines your subject matter?
>
> 2 INTRO-   Where is the situational context - Boston Merrrimack Valley
> and history of origin and UMassLowell support level?
> At end, move from web hosting to SWDev activity begs question
> of what web hosting preceded it?
>
> 3. I didn't get the point of 'EDUC'N IS NOT OUR GOAL'.
> One parag. is just too short to explain context (here or in INTRO)
>
> 4. 'Student Code is of Low Quality' 'looks like' a new section. Is it?
> Again, a too sudden change of subject, too brief an explanation,
> so it's misleading : what class level and subject? what curriculum
> objective? Don't generalize without evidence:
> new CSAB/ABET accreditation requires syllabi to list
> teachning goals and learning outcomes of each course.
>
> Perhaps you mean that academic course outcomes are weak
> or inadequate compared to professional dev. needs (walk before run?).
> (There is movement toward scripting languages in freshman courses
> now; but testing may be inadequate and correctness specification
> is probably missing, except in theory-oriented programming courses
> (e.g. David Gries, B Liskov, B Meyer);
> At the least, assert  macros should replace print statements.
>
>
> 5. CURRENT STRUCTURES
> Content is good, although another abrupt transition into
> how to manage a student-staffed non-profit on a limited
> [how much?] budget.
>
> ALso - how you got IRS non-profit certificaiton is missing.
> Perhaps this comes under fund-raising - another hot topic
> to your HFOSS audience.
>
> Explain the current environment - OS not just Perl.
> Linux or Windows or both?  Platform-independent code design
> is another significant gap in BS/CS curicula IMHO.
> That's a big hurdle (along with international char sets - UTF-16)
> that UML/MDD and uS Software Factories is all about
> but lacking inside academia.
>
> 6. IMPROVED STRUCTURES
> Current vs. Future is the transition here -
> You imply future goals indirectly by listing 'current' bottlenecks.
> I know you mean to improve by remedying all these
> problems but the audience expects more positive
> goal statements and hopefully plans of attack
> (and/or a humble plea for advice  :-) .
>
>
> 7.7.  BROADER GOALS/PARALLEL HABITAT etc.
> This is the last (amd most unexpected) transition.
> I assumed you meant to transfer technology to
> that august organization (knowing your past).
>
> I mistook what you meant until the last parag.
> and then I liked your parallel between CSL
> program design and rural barn-raising
> (as in the Harrison Ford  movie in Amish Lancaster PA
> whose name I've forgotten).  I like that analogy
> but wish I had known your motive in advance.
>
>
> All in all, I hope CSL gets into the HFOSS program.
> You would do well to write an abstract of your talk
> or display, on its first slide or poster. That would
> help you clarify the language so people comprehend
> your intent and its very good content faster.
> _______________________________________________
> Cadre-politics mailing list
> Cadre-politics at lists.thecsl.org
> http://lists.thecsl.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cadre-politics
>